Andy McNeill Hello, Matt. How are you doing today?
Matt Duffield Hey, good, Andy. Good to see you again.
Andy McNeill We're Free Arkansas and the purpose of what we want to do is we just want to talk about different issues that are going on in the state and we want do it in such a way where we're trying to apply common sense and balance to thinking through issues that affect our state. And the way that we do it, and if you go look at our website at FreeArkansas.com, is we've got all these lists that show how Arkansas ranks.
So where we rank on good things and where we ranked on bad things. And then we want to pose the question, like, does that matter? Does where you stand matter? And what could we do to make the state a lot better? And so that's what we're here to do. Matt, as we sort of kick off today, how are things been going down at the Capitol?
Matt Duffield Well, let me say this too, Andy, I'd like to encourage everyone who sees this on our social media, on Facebook, on Twitter, on all of our platforms to please comment, express your views. I mean, this is an open forum. We want feedback. We want to know what you think as citizens of the state of Arkansas, or for that matter, people out of state watching. Please don't hesitate to comment and express your opinion on any of the topics on the website or that we discuss on the show. So I wanted to say that real quick too.
Andy McNeill Yeah, the snarkier-- you can even be snarky. We don't really care. You can throw it at us. We like the dialogue. We want people to comment on what we're saying.
Matt Duffield You know, let me just say this real quick, I agree with you. They can say whatever, but back in my days when I was on some reality TV, you know what the craziest, funniest comment, at least to me-- some people might agree now. But you know what the craziest comment was, anyone ever said just about my appearance, you what they said? They said my head looks like a cheeseburger. You know at least it may be a win now. And I mean, back then it would have been a double. Now we're up to the quad or the six layer at Wendy's. But anyway, I never will forget that. I don't know why that stuck with me.
Andy McNeill Speaking of feedback, have you happened to catch wind of some of these town halls that are happening around the United States where people go a little ballistic? Have you seen any of that?
Matt Duffield I've seen some clips for sure. People get fired up.
Andy McNeill Yeah, people get really fired up. And this is kind of one of the points of what we want to do is, of course, people can get angry about certain positions, right? It's very natural. It happens all over the political spectrum, but what we wanna do is if you can break down, sort of park that anger a little bit. and even park your views for a second. And maybe if you kind of look at different things, there's different ways to view it. Maybe that opens up a new reality for us.
We really wanna talk today about a few different things that are going on around the country and then here at the Capitol. But before we even kind of jump into that, we wanna just have an AI moment. It's kind of changing our lives in a lot of different ways. And so Matt, just curious, give me your AI moment, tell me what you think.
Matt Duffield Well, I'm going to give you some quotes, Andy. So this is going to be kind of more the negative take of it. So a few nights ago, I say a few nights ago, several weeks back, I was up and it was one of those nights. I couldn't sleep. So, I went down a rabbit hole of 60 Minute interviews with a man named Jeffrey Hinton. And Jeffrey Hilton is considered the godfather of artificial intelligence. So just to give you some quotes. And we don't want to get off-- I know that's not going to be our main topic on the show. But just to kind of start off, some quotes from Jeffrey Hinton about AI, I'll just go down the list.
He says, 'I think political systems will use it to terrorize people. AI is an existential threat to humanity. There's no chance of stopping AI's development.' Sounds like we're in the movie Terminator. He says, 'It could convince us to assault the Capitol even without doing so itself.' He says, 'I don't see any clear or straightforward solutions.' And the last thing he says, 'There is a 10 to 20% chance that AI would lead to human extinction within the next three decades.'
Now let me just interject this real quickly too. So I saw a quote from Elon Musk from a week or two ago and he actually had the percentages reversed of what Jeffrey Hinton says. He says there's an 80% chance that he believes AI is gonna be a great thing. So, but either way, it's a great discussion because this is, for me being 41, it's such a new thing. But it's here and we've got, as I've told my colleagues in the state legislature, we're gonna have to manage it at the state level best we can.
Andy McNeill Yeah, well, you know, on the positive side, I'm using AI tools all the time to write a letter or to do sort of a standard response to something or even take notes. So oftentimes when we have meetings, we're having an AI tool to transcribe it and then we pop it into another AI tool to summarize it and you can put it in a folder and then if you go back and ask a question. It can go back to look at all of what you have.
So there's all these little positive things, but there is a dark side. And I think about it the same way I think about social media and privacy. Sometimes I really like the fact that I can find certain things that I like on social media. But I really despise that I'm tracked constantly. And I do think that it can be used against us. And I do think that's a threat for sure. So I'm sure people have a lot of different views on it.
Let's switch gears. So let's talk about something that's going on in the US. So this week the federal government came out, or at least the Trump administration did, with laying the groundwork to get rid of the Department of Education. And I want to talk about that briefly. Later we'll go through, later, not today in this show, but in another show, we'll get down much deeper down the rabbit hole of education.
But I want back up for a second. I want us to go back into the 1800s, and I want sort of think through this concept that says-- because it must have been foreign at the time. Like if you'd gone back into like the 1840s and said, should everybody pay dollars into a federal government or a state government, and then the government's responsible for getting education. I don't really know if that really would have landed because we don't really do this until after the Civil War. So we forget that sometimes because we just take it for granted that it makes sense to put the dollar into the government.
So let me start with the argument for it. You know, I think that if we have a free society and a capitalist society, there's some base level of knowledge that helps us all if everybody has that same level of base knowledge. And so I think that's helpful. There's this neighborhood effect where if you can't afford the education for your children, me funding it in some ways is beneficial for me in sort of the neighborhood effect versus people being uneducated. So I think that's a pretty decent argument.
But let's just kind of take that to the extreme here for a second. I just want to get your thoughts on this. So if you sort of take a look at we're doing high school today, everybody I think would say, that makes sense that we're all putting money in to teach our kids those things. But if we set something like, Hey, should the government pay for employees that work for like companies that I've got to, let's say, learn how to use PowerPoint, I don't think anybody would say, oh yeah, the government should pay for that or the government should to teach someone how to work on a poultry line. Would you agree with that?
Matt Duffield Well, let's go back because you brought in a really interesting point about the inception of this entire idea of the Department of Education. And it's so great you brought this up because I was having a discussion about this with one of my friends a little bit ago. So think back in time to when the Department Of Education, the whole system of essentially the yellow bus system we'll call it, of taking children from their homes and taking them to a facility to where they are educated in various things.
I would love to look into, and I have not done this, as to when just the concept of that was was brought to people by government, what the reaction of people was. Because you know from my understanding back then, obviously a lot of people were farming. They were living off the land. I mean, it was a much, much simpler time that we can't really even really relate to, I would say. But I would love to know, what were the reactions of the people when the government said, you know what, you have to, we're coming to bring, take your children to this facility to educate them.
And I don't know if it's still this way, Andy, but back in the day when we were kids, they would say essentially, well, you have to send your kids to school or the parents will go to jail.
Andy McNeill Yeah, just think about that. You know, that's pretty extreme, right, especially in an agrarian society where people had to be there for the harvest. But I look at it now and I would sit there and say, if I were being honest, I think this is true for most people, quite frankly, even people that are pro and against online. Most people have no idea what the Department of Education does in its fulsome self, right?
But I'd like to think that with the overhang of whatever it is, $27 trillion of debt, which I personally view as an existential threat to the United States-- not everybody does, but I do-- I would say that anything that we could do to bring the cost of education down and remove certain things that we lay on children, because let's face it, we also indoctrinate in the different things. And people would argue about what that is, right? You know, some people would say, oh my gosh, we should have a prayer. We should stay the pledge of allegiance. Oh, we shouldn't rewrite our history, right.
So there's all these people that have these different ideas. But, and then they would argue back to what I probably said earlier, which is, it's this common theme, it's the American theme. But regardless of those issues, I'd like to think we could drive the cost down and take the burden of additional rules off administrators and teachers. Any different thoughts on that?
Matt Duffield Yeah, no, I mean that's it's a big can of worms and I can say-- so I graduated high school back in 2002. And my dad graduated back in, it would have been 1958. So essentially at least where I've grown up and with my dad, at least socially the worlds were very similar. The main difference was we had more channels on the TV, a better quality picture. Other than that, we got a car, we were driving around when we were 16 years old. You get with your friends, you'd cruise up down the strip. You listen to music. You go to ballgames. You cheer on the team. It was it was essentially the same.
Well, now in 2025, Andy, it's not the same. I mean, the whole social aspect of of our students is different. And it's just a whole different ballgame in the entire education world. I'll say this as well, too. I'm big on, I think that the youth of America needs to be taught real life skills. And Representative Bruce Cozart, who is a wonderful representative from down in Hot Springs, he has a ton of knowledge with education. Maybe we could get him on sometime. But I've had some discussions with him on exactly what are the schools teaching about managing money?
Back in the day, we had home ec class where we learned how to fill out a checkbook, balance a checkbook, what's the concept of a credit card, how does that work, how to bake a cake, how to sew a boxing glove, which was a disaster. I made a C. I haven't forgotten that grade either. But it was just things of that nature. So I think it's just imperative that we teach real life skills and not necessarily knocking it, but classes where I'm trying to remember what year or where a certain pyramid or a pharaoh was in Egypt, that's not a real-life skill that's helping them live and be successful, like their history teacher, I guess.
Andy McNeill And it really gets back to, there's multiple things to think about here. One is, how does that relate back to the tax dollar that goes in? But also, what does it really relate to the student? What are the important things to learn, right? And if you look back, we've changed the education process over the centuries pretty much. You know, a lot of us don't know Greek and Roman history because they don't really teach it, but that's what Washington and Jefferson, they all were steeped in that because that's one of the things that they sort of learned.
And I'll just end on this and then we'll switch gears. You know, I agree with what you just said because I've always made this-- this is higher education, but I always sort of question like, why does a freshman have to have calculus, right? I agree that some majors need calculus. Why does everybody need to pass the calculus? You'd be better off with, like you said, how to manage a checkbook or even speaking Spanish, right? At least that there's some practicality to that that you could deploy as you get older, whereas most people have no idea what they learned in calculus.
Matt Duffield And let me say this too. When I was in high school, you know, Andy, going back, Spanish, it wasn't an option on the table for me to learn it. And man, I wish I had taken those classes. I would have loved, I still want to learn more Spanish. My friends that are Hispanic say I speak broken Spanglish. But let's just a little bit, get a little bit more personally in depth there. Andy back when you were in high school, what was your most difficult class that you took?
Andy McNeill I think the one that I can remember the most is I had a teacher named Patsy Musgrove that taught an English class. And boy, I'm not even sure what I got in the grade. I'm sure it was rough, but I learned a whole lot because she was tough. So, it's another thing because it was okay to do bad, right? Or not like you did poorly because you gave a bad effort, but not everybody got the blue ribbon and A's.
Matt Duffield No, that's right. No, I understand.
Andy McNeill It was a little bit different.
Matt Duffield Participation trophy idea.
Andy McNeill So there's a lot for us to go down the rabbit hole on that, because later we want to talk about how we improve education in Arkansas. Let's flip to a different topic. Let's talk prisons for a second. So I know there was a lot of activity this week at the Capitol. So just set the stage.
Matt Duffield Andy, I'm sorry, if I may, let me just say this real quick before we do. I think this would be an interactive experience for our viewers here in the comments. In the comments below, why don't you comment an experience that you've recently had at a restaurant with a waiter or waitress that is under the age of 30, or it could be of any age, essentially, that is a product of this newer age education system, Andy, that is not really what we grew up in. And I've got some hilarious stories I could share with some.
And this is not to pick on them. And don't call people out by name, but I would just like to see some stories. Andy, if you go out and eat with me, the odds of a waitress sweeping things dang near under my feet is now we're at about 90%. Or forgetting my drink order within the first 60 seconds of the dining experience. Again, not picking on them, but I just think that would be neat. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Andy McNeill No, no, no. I'm actually going to throw it back to you here real quick. Tell us about what's going on, at least from the bill, so Senate Bill 354, what happened this week down at the Capitol. And then I'm going to get into the specifics, so just lay out the high level for us.
Matt Duffield Sure. Well, essentially, well, let me say this at first. So we're at the point in the session to where a lot of people are trying to get a lot things accomplished legislatively. So they're really, a lot people are kind of in their own zone, if you will, on trying to get bills filed and move forward. So there has not been a lot of conversation about the prison, not as much as one might think. And that's not because it's not an extremely important topic to a lot of the legislators.
It's just, right now the priority is we have, coming back from spring break, we're gonna have two and a half weeks left, probably two and half weeks, that's the plan as of now. But there's kind of been a mad dash for that. So, in regard to the prison, I would say this from just visiting with different colleagues and he said, she said conversations, it's a mixed bag. There's some that have the attitude of, well, hey, this is just how it's supposed to be or how it gonna be, it's not in my district. There's others that say, well, Hey, that's not anywhere near my district, but we have to really consider this in regards to the budgeting of this project. It's really a mixed reaction that I've heard.
Andy McNeill Tell me if I've got the tee up correct. It's basically an appropriation bill for $850 million to build a prison, a 3,000 bed facility in Franklin County. And essentially this week, it went through the Senate committee and the House committee. And it hasn't gone to the full vote yet, but it will. Do I have that right?
Matt Duffield Essentially with the time frame, and and don't quote me on the exact number. You said 850. It's somewhere in the ballpark there
Andy McNeill Well, I think actually it's 850 total-ish, but that's because some money was already set aside. So I think this one is 750 million plus what they've already done. And I don't really know if this includes the consulting, which I want to get to here in a second, but it had some colorful quotes from the people that spoke on it for and against. And I want get your thoughts on it. But first, just, you know, I'm just curious, over under. Let's say it passes, do we do it under, let's use 850 as our over under. You taking the over or the under?
Matt Duffield Andy, from the information and knowledge I have on the project, I don't see how it could be accomplished for under $1 billion from the information that I've read.
Andy McNeill Here's why I would say, I take the over. I take over because I look at just various things that are going on in our economy. If the tariffs turn out to be not a threat, but something we actually deploy, then chances are labor, steel are all going to rise. Even if you get them domestically produced, domestic producers will increase their pricing to go right along with the price increases that importers will have to raise their pricing to
And if we have any sort of recession or inflation, I think all of those things work against this project coming in on time, on budget. So those things I think are serious threats to it. And I'm putting aside whether or not what you think about tariffs or anything like that, but I think the reality will be that if I import something and now I'm stuck with paying the government a tariff, I'm merely going to increase the price. And I think my competitors will just follow suit. I think that's what's going to happen.
Anyway, so I take the over if it passes. What do you think? Do you think it passes when it goes to the full-- what's your guess?
Matt Duffield That's a good question. Well, I'll say this. I think ultimately, yes, it will. Now how long that might take and how many tries, from my understanding, the next stop, it will go to the Senate floor. I believe that's the next stop. And then I believe from there, it would go to the House floor for a vote.
Andy McNeill What will change people's minds? So like, what would change your mind about it? Because I think you're a no, right? Is that correct?
Matt Duffield Here's the thing. I would want to see a detailed plan of how this would work, and the efficiency of the project, a time frame, a road to be built in there, the plan for water, sewage, electricity. I just like to see, with my business background, I would like to see a line item of that and the quotes and the numbers. I mean, it's a loaded topic. And I've never managed a project as big as a 3,000 bed state prison, but I do feel I have a certain understanding of at least a process of building anything. And then what goes into that and what's within the four walls, at least as far as the construction process.
Andy McNeill From what you hear in f the quotes, and I'm going to go through the quotes here because I think they're pretty interesting, you don't read from anybody that we don't believe that we need more prison beds. Because I think everybody understands that we're over capacity, and that's a problem. Everybody also understands it's really expensive and everybody would like to drive the costs down for to do this. It's not cheap. And once you sort of do it, it's a cost that doesn't go away. But there's some things that most people are upset about the, let's just say the practicality of the location. So Senator John Payton basically said, you know, I don't believe they're going to be able to staff any more than 1,000 prisoners. Tell us why you think he said that.
Matt Duffield Well, I know Senator Payton pretty well, and I mean, this is a total compliment to him. He's a get to the point kind of guy, which I love because that's what I try to be too. And I can relate to that. I mean, I think there's a concern. If we get past the construction concerns and building it, then we get into, we build it, how are we going to staff it? And there's some concerns of the location and where it is in regard to the vicinity of the larger cities of Fort Smith, Russellville, Paris, Arkansas, and so forth. But let me say this as well too. I think there's a concern no matter where they put the prison in regards to staffing to a point, because, Andy, the bottom line is, especially when you get to the guys inside the prison, I mean very few people, irregardless of pay, want to go in the middle of a prison and earn their livelihood and be around these guys. I mean, it's just not a job that a lot of people want.
Andy McNeill I think their point is, there's just not enough people around there, and you're going to have a difficult time attracting the employee base. And then that's a legitimate concern, quite frankly, any time people put invested capital anywhere. So I'll just use our own company that we've got. As we brought in investors from around the United States to build out one of our companies in Russellville, people would ask the question, 'Where can you get the employees?' and expected us to come up with real answers. You know, not, 'Hey, trust us,' answers, you know.
I think that there's other people that say, hey, look, it's going to be okay. So I know Senator Hester basically says, well, gee, what's the cost to society? In other words, you and I heard the other day when we were talking to the folks at Pope County that a number of people, generally, let's admit it for smaller crimes, it doesn't mean that those crimes aren't bad, but just smaller crimes, don't really serve out a sentence because we're just overcrowded. In general, we have no place to put them, right? You know, so I think that's what he's referring to. Legit argument?
Matt Duffield Well, here's the thing, for one, I'll say this, there's no question we need more prison beds. But let me add to this as well, and I believe on last week's show, Sheriff Shane Jones, he made the comment that they had added 16 beds at the state hospital for people with mental issues, I believe. So in my view, there is a lot of space being taken up, especially at the county level, we'll say, of people who have mental problems.
And that's not where they need to be, you know. That's not where those people need to be. So you have that issue as well. But the bottom line is, we all agree on one thing, we know we need more prison beds. Senator Hester has a valid concern. I mean, look, we have an issue. We need them. But at the same time, in my view, and other legislators' view that I've spoken with, we have to be fiscally responsible with Arkansans' tax dollars and with our budget to get there and what's the most efficient way to get there. And hopefully we can have those discussions and do what's best for the state.
Andy McNeill Well, and just a simple way to say this would be like, look, if we just broke this down on cost per square foot of a prison, which by the way, if you take these numbers and just divide it by the actual number of beds, it is a huge number per bed, right? I mean, it's like building a home for each one of these guys, right. That's essentially what we're doing. And, heck, as a taxpayer, I look at this and say, well, good Lord, why does that make sense?
So I think there is a valid argument that says we need to be fiscally responsible, and part of that is where would it already have sewer, water, power, an appropriate number of employees. We heard other arguments about, well, gee, where are these people coming from? Maybe it needs to be housed in areas where they're generating most of the criminal activity.
I don't know if that's a valid concern or not. My guess is that plenty of counties would love the economic activity that goes along with it. But as I understand it, the county here, it was sort of a surprise for them, a little bit like Pope County and the casino. Is that kind of your understanding?
Matt Duffield Yes, my understanding was there was not communication with the area that land had been purchased there to essentially build the prison. That's my understanding.
Andy McNeill So what happens if it doesn't pass? Is it just status quo for the next couple of years?
Matt Duffield Well, Andy, that's a great question. And you know, since I've been in the legislature, we ask questions like that. And I'll go back to our last fiscal session when the Game and Fish Commission's budget was not approved. And a lot of the older guard there, they said, look, this is gonna pass. Well, ultimately it did, but we had to come back with a special session to do it. So there's been a lot things happening at the state level that, historically, I don't want to say they've never happened, but essentially they've never happened. So there's nothing off the table in my view at this point.
Andy McNeill I don't know, because I haven't looked at this, do you know, where are they getting the money for it? I mean, are they cutting something else?
Matt Duffield Well, perhaps Misty has that data she can get for all the dollars. I mean, we can simply say it's state tax dollars. But as far as the actual breakdown, I don't have that in front of me.
Andy McNeill Well, Governor Hutchinson wanted to put more roads, which I think most people were in favor of. One of the things I thought was pretty interesting, he just put it to the people. And that requires an amendment where the amendment processes work. And I know there's amendment bills going through right now that we might change that, but I guess that would be another way to do it is to turn it into amendment for the state. We'll see. It's going to be pretty interesting. I know they're on break next week, and then we come back two weeks later. Like you said, they can bring it up over and over. Maybe they'll get to you and explain to you why your concerns should be ameliorated. Maybe they won't. I don't know.
Matt Duffield I'll say this, you know, discussion is always good. It doesn't cost anything to talk unless, Andy, you want to hire a consultant.
Andy McNeill Oh, I forgot about that. I was about to close us out. Yes. OK, that's another thing. For $16 million, any idea what we're getting for that? So let me tee it up. Let's first tee it up first.
Matt Duffield Yeah, we talked about it off air, but for people watching, tell them what--
Andy McNeill So, I'm assuming it's just the governor's office, but I could be wrong exactly who the counterparty is. But effectively, we as a state, let's just say broadly, have hired a firm that's basically consulting on the project. So as I understand it, they're not the architects, they are not the building company, they're just a consultant on it and it's $16 million. And I just think that's a huge number. And I'm just curious, what do we get for 16 million? You got any idea?
Matt Duffield Well, I'm the same. I don't have an answer to that, but I'll say this. I know there are a lot of elected officials that are now at the Capitol, and we're very interested in consulting fees for not just this, but anything. Because we have seen, like you said, $16 million, I mean, man, that's a lot of money, Andy. That's a lot of money. If I got $16 million I may be on an island for a while.
Andy McNeill Well, and you know, it's not that I'm beating up on consultants in general, right? Because clearly there's times where it really makes sense. Perhaps in this, sort of, you now we're talking about huge numbers and maybe it makes sense, I don't know. But I think it does pose a question about what do you get? And I have this sense-- although I don't know if I'm correct, I could be way wrong, so somebody tell me I'm wrong, I'd love for you to tell me you're completely wrong-- but I get the sense that essentially it is there to help facilitate the process of getting this passed, facilitate getting the different pieces of information, the aggregation of those, and maybe the synthesis of those into some sort of story that you could explain to other people. Clearly important steps for a project of this size, but still a big number, you know? So maybe in two weeks we'll know the answer to that and we'll talk about it then.
Matt Duffield We'll definitely know more for sure.
Andy McNeill Misty, have a great weekend. Matt, have a great weekend, we'll talk to you guys soon.
Matt Duffield Have a good one.