Andy McNeill [00:00:18] Welcome to the podcast for Free Arkansas. I'm Andy McNeill and I'm here with Representative Matt Duffield and our Pope County Sheriff Shane Jones and Ben Cross. And welcome guys, how you guys doing? Doing okay?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:00:33] We're doing good. Thanks for having me, Andy.
Andy McNeill [00:00:35] You're doing all right? Matt, how you doing today down there at the State House?
Representative Matt Duffield [00:00:38] Oh, good. Yeah, we just got off the House floor, casting some more votes. And another good day. I believe we have now about five, probably five working weeks left in the session. And we're going to have a spring break coming up in a week or two. So it's good. You know, people start to get a little irritable, get a little bit tired, you know, and people are starting to file more and more bills here. It's always interesting, but I think it's going good.
Andy McNeill [00:01:09] Did you guys break to watch the Arkansas game?
Representative Matt Duffield [00:01:12] I did not get to see it, but I heard about the end result and I know that people weren't happy, nor was I.
Andy McNeill [00:01:19] No, we should have won. Shane, did you watch it?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:01:23] Yeah, we got to see the last part of it.
Andy McNeill [00:01:26] That's too bad when you miss those free throws at the end. You know, Arkansas, if we look on various lists, as wonderful a place it is, we still, on some things that are really good, we're at the bottom. And some things that are bad, at the top. And what we want to explore is like, does that matter? And if it does, how do we make it better? And what would be some of the ideas to do that? And you really can't do that in a 30 second sound bite. You really got to have a longer dialogue to understand these different problems. And so that's what we're trying to do. And today we're talking to the county judge, we're talking to the sheriff of Pope County. And we really want to just talk today broadly about prisons and the county jail and just the different issues that are going on.
But before we do that, I just want to ask about a particular bill. So I want to describe what the bill has done at the state house. I have no idea if it's going to pass or not. So there's always been this argument in the last number of years about the amendments that go to our constitution. And there's different arguments pro or con, and the arguments sort of go like this. So on one side, people say, gee whiz, it's outside money and big interest groups that are able to spend the capital needed to put something on the amendment to get something that they want. That's sort of on one side.
On the other side, I look at that, there's an argument that says that it's the opportunity for the voters to vote for themselves. It's like the one opportunity you have to direct democracy. And you have a voice. And in a lot of ways, it's a brake pedal. Because in certain places where the state house does things, let's say, raise property taxes, you can pass something that puts a moratorium on property taxes. This one raises the bar even more.
It basically says that 50 % of all registered voters would be the denominator in determining whether something would pass. So just to give you some information on here, that means if we went back and we looked at the last four or five years, most everything would have failed. The casino expansion would have failed. The sales tax and highway would have failed. The term limits would have failed. The voter ID would have failed. The casino expansion at the beginning, the first one, would have failed. The minimum wage would have failed. Medical marijuana would have failed. Economic development would have failed.
Essentially almost everything would fail. And that's because we don't get enough voters. So in my view, this sort of takes power away from people. And I would argue to say, if you're too lazy to come out and vote, why should we include you in the denominator? And that's just my personal opinion. Also, I think the argument around out of state money, there's out of state money in everything, right? So every statewide elected officer is using outside money. Curious what you guys think? Matt, what do you think?
Representative Matt Duffield [00:04:13] You brought up the voice of the people and that's, ultimately, that's what I was elected to do. And that's what our sheriff and county judge, we're all elected officials. We were elected to work for the people. And I always say that they're my boss. And when they contact me, I have people contact me and say, Hey, I'm really, really sorry to bother you. And I say, well, look, you're my employer. I work for you. I'm working for your tax dollars. So, that's the way I see it.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:04:42] I do agree with what Matt said is that being an elected official on the state level or the county level, you work for the people that you serve. We are servants and that's what we have to remember being an elected official in any capacity is that we're servants first. So we have to hear from the people that we serve. So, I agree with what Matt said.
Andy McNeill [00:05:08] You know, just picture if you had 49.99 % and 100% of the people voted for it, it would just still not pass.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:05:15] You're still under the 50% threshold.
Andy McNeill [00:05:16] You're under the 50%. That doesn't seem very fair, in my opinion. Judge Cross, what do you think?
Judge Ben Cross [00:05:23] Establishing a 50 % threshold for attainment is unrealistic. We've seen issues brought up before, and when you change that language from a percentage of who voted in the last, usually it's the last gubernatorial election, you change it from that threshold to just a blanket across the board 50 % threshold, it's unattainable. Now I can see the side that's being argued is our U .S. Constitution has been amended 27 times. Arkansas Constitution, which is newer and fresher, has been amended 104 times. I see some thought process behind it, but I also see that 50% threshold is not attainable.
Andy McNeill [00:06:10] Well, can you imagine if we did that on sales tax related to this project, right? Just how hard that would be because you can't get everybody to go out and vote, you know? And so you got to have some threshold that's at least attainable. Let's talk a little bit about the prisons for a second. And I wanted to get your sense. We've talked to some other people, and I wanted to see if you agree with these statistics. And then maybe you can tell us a little bit about your impressions because you guys are seeing it all the time and we're not. Arkansas, I think we're third in violent crime. I think we're sixth in property crime. There are 91,000 people in the Arkansas prison system. This counts people that are on parole. That's sort of a rate of 9 per 1,000 people, and the average is 6 per 1,000 people in the US. At least I know in our statewide prisons, we're overpopulated, and I know you guys are overcrowded. And then we just have a lot of people just as a quantity in jail. Do you agree with that? Is that what you're seeing too? And why do you think that is?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:07:14] Well, if you don't mind me speaking up, Andy, you also have to add that right now in our county jails, we're just over 2,000 backed up for state prisons in our county jails.
Andy McNeill [00:07:25] Really?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:07:26] Yeah. So that's another, that's another issue. And we've had it close to 3,000.
Andy McNeill [00:07:34] So those are state prisoners that don't have room in a state prison that the county then has to basically handle? Is it people in the state prison from Pope County or do you get people from Pulaski County and Washington County?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:07:49] No, no, no. And I appreciate you bringing that up. No, we don't hold people from other counties that are waiting for state prison beds. These are people that have done a crime in this county that have been sentenced out of our judicial district to go to prison. So we don't hold people from Pulaski County or anywhere else waiting for a state prison bed. These are people that have done the crimes in that county, especially here in Pope County.
Andy McNeill [00:08:19] And you have 2,000.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:08:24] Statewide, yeah.
Andy McNeill [00:08:25] Statewide you've got.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:08:26] That are awaiting prison beds.
Andy McNeill [00:08:28] Can you, Judge Cross, can you give us some history of the Pope County facilities and maybe explain the difference between a state prison and, a county facility?
Judge Ben Cross [00:08:43] I've got over three decades in law enforcement before I took on this role. And backing up just a second, the biggest problem in our state is recidivism. I must say, based on what we see on a local level, your state prisons, the recidivism rate of that person being in their second, third, fourth time is amazing. I mean, we're pushing two-thirds of our inmates are in there on their second and third sentences.
So, recidivism is a huge issue of another conversation, obviously. But historically, county jails, their purpose is to hold misdemeanor offenses accountable. That's the purpose of a county jail. And when something rises to the level of a felony and they're convicted, it's our job to hold that felon until the state takes them and puts them into the state justice system, which is the Department of Corrections. But there should be no time lag there. And we've held people for up to years that are waiting on prison beds. But a county jail is to hold local misdemeanor offenses accountable.
Just to give you a staggering number, January 1st of this year, Pope County started with 10,901 active misdemeanor warrants. And those are people that we can't hold accountable. Those are DWI offenders that should be doing 30 days in jail. Those are shoplifters that should be doing 15 days in jail. So our district court system is backlogged that far. And here's another staggering thing. Those 11,000 active warrants owe over $20 million in fines and restitution. And that's restitution to victims. That's your merchants that were issued hot checks, your civil judgments against renters who have destroyed property. All that goes into this.
Another big one is we cannot hold people with body attachments accountable. And those are people that are behind on child support. So used to, before this became such an epidemic, a person with a body attachment as little as $500 was put in jail until they could come and pay that back child support. We have people 40, 50, even $60,000 behind in back child support and no mechanism of accountability because our jails are housed up with violent felons and state inmates.
Andy McNeill [00:11:18] Pretty staggering statistics, like 10,000 misdemeanors. I don't know if that's 10,000 people. But what does our county have, 80,000 people in our county?
Judge Ben Cross [00:11:29] Yes, our realized population is about 82,000. And of the 10,901 that number, yes, people have multiple warrants. So there'll be somebody out there with a dozen warrants. That's not nearly 11,000 wanted people. That's the number of warrants active that need to be served and those people held accountable. Again, but now the staggering number is the $20,734,000 owed in fines and restitution.
Andy McNeill [00:11:56] Oh, of course.
Representative Matt Duffield [00:11:59] Judge Cross, if I may, you mentioned, I guess, officially we have 80,000 in the County, but I believe we had some, a few discussions that we believe there may actually be quite a few more people that didn't fill out the census. Is that correct?
Judge Ben Cross [00:12:16] The 2020 census is 64,000 and some change. And so the number 82,000 to 85,000 is the 25% of the known population that the U .S. census missed in 2020. And so if you pull up today, you're going to see a census of about 64,000. But reality is about 82,000-85,000 based on where the US Postal Service knows that there's heads on beds. And so that's where we come up with that realized population that we serve. And a key thing I always tell everybody is we're providing 100% of the services to 100% of the people 100% of the time for 75% of the money.
Andy McNeill [00:13:03] So, Sheriff, does that mean if you arrest somebody for a misdemeanor crime, they just can't sit in jail because there's really no place for them to sit in jail?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:13:11] That's correct. That's correct. A lot of times a misdemeanor will get released on site. Or if it's a violent misdemeanor, we bring them in, we process them according to state law, and then, we release after that, if the judge allows. But the only misdemeanors we really hold are violent misdemeanors, that's done a violent violent act.
Andy McNeill [00:13:35] What's an example of that?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:13:37] Well like battery, domestic battery, stuff like that
Andy McNeill [00:13:45] So how many beds do we have in our current county facility? And I'm curious too, is the county facility the same thing as an Arkansas community correction facility? Are those the same thing?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:13:56] No, no. One of them is ran by the state, one of them is ran by your county. Our bed, our facility is a 172 bed facility.
Andy McNeill [00:14:08] Okay, so you go there first if you get in trouble, and you would either then go to a state, assuming it's a state crime, or you'd go to the community correction facility. Is that correct?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:14:15] That's correct.
Andy McNeill [00:14:18] And so our 100 bed facility, is it basically just a 100 percent full then?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:14:23] Yes. Yeah.
Andy McNeill [00:14:24] All the time?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:14:25] Pretty much. We stay at or above capacity.
Andy McNeill [00:14:30] So what's the solution?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:14:32] Well, the solution is what we're trying to get with this 3/4 cent sales tax, and that is to maintain or to build and maintain and operate the 400 bed facility. What Judge Cross and I have tried to do is-- and I appreciate Judge Cross' leadership on this because he came into office as a county judge and he had a 10 to 20 year outlook on things. When we look at design and where we're going to be in 10 to 20 years, even 50 years, we went that far out. So what we're trying to do is trying to get the information out on this public safety tax, the election coming up, to build a 400 bed detention center and a 911 center.
Judge Ben Cross [00:15:18] Yeah, it's May 13th, early voting begins May 6th. And you'll see a number of things on the ballot because school board elections coincide with this election as well. And the key thing to ours is the 3/4 cent, but also the issuance of the bonds to commence construction. Because we're going to have to have a bond issuance for the construction of this.
So we're asking the voters to vote for the 3/4 cent and for the bond initiative. And also, the sheriff mentioned it, this is for a new 911 center. Our 911 center is over 30 years old. And when it started, they were answering about 40,000-50,000 calls a year. Now they're answering nearly 200,000 calls a year. And the sheriff pointed out, we're trying to look way down the future. And history projects that in the year 2045, Pope County will be a population of at least 110,000.
Andy McNeill [00:16:19] I'd like to think so. We're trying to do our part in the county, for sure. So is the sales tax then meant to pay off the bond? Is that the way to think about it?
Judge Ben Cross [00:16:29] It will do that, but it's also to fund operations and maintenance from now on. Because a lot of people don't realize that the current 1 cent county tax that's on a Walmart receipt doesn't go to the county. It's a portion of it based on population. So the county only receives 40/100ths of that penny, whereas the city of Russellville receives nearly half of it. And then our smaller cities get appropriated for the remaining 15. So we're getting less than a half a cent of what is commonly referred to as a county tax, while every city in our county has their own respective sales tax that they get a 100 percent of.
Andy McNeill [00:17:13] Okay. So we're trying to make the distinction between, someone says, hey, look, we already have this county tax, why don't we use that? It's really something different. And it's really directed toward the cities on economic development, not really maintaining buildings and things we need for a county level. Which it's not like, I'm curious, in the cities within our counties, I assume they have some jail cells as well, too, or everybody who gets arrested goes to the county jail?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:17:37] No, everybody comes to the county jail.
Judge Ben Cross [00:17:44] What is this facility going to cost us, Judge Cross?
Judge Ben Cross [00:17:46] Approximately $85 million for a 400-bed facility and a 9-1-1 center, which will also house our Office of Emergency Management and the Sheriff's Office. Obviously the Sheriff's Office goes because he's in charge of the jail. So it's going to be on a 26-acre site that we've already secured and paid for just north of exit 83. So we have the property to put it on already secured and debt free.
Andy McNeill [00:18:15] If you've done something that's not all that bad, but you've done something that's bad, but let's just say that's not violent, you're just walking the streets today, right? Because you don't you don't have the ability to put anybody in there. So if somebody was arguing like, Well, geez, we're just gonna try to incarcerate more people, that's not the case. We've got a lot of people doing things wrong and they're just roaming the streets right this second. Is that correct?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:18:36] That's correct. Yeah, if you've just got a misdemeanor warrant out there, you're pretty much going to get a serve and release or with the coordinate.
Andy McNeill [00:18:50] Tell me how the money works when you hold state prisoners. How do you get paid? Do you get paid what you actually spend?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:18:58] Well, we're always behind when it comes to state funding. Right now, it costs the taxpayer here in Pope County about $62 a day to hold the state inmate. And the state only pays $40. $40 a day.
Andy McNeill [00:19:16] So if you pay that other $20?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:19:19] Yeah.
Andy McNeill [00:19:20] I guess us.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:19:22] Yeah, yeah, we were getting paid-- and I will applaud Governor Hutchinson. We met with him at the Governor's Mansion when he was in, when he was the governor, myself, along with some of our sheriffs, we met with him at the Governor's Mansion, had a good talk and he worked with our legislators, Matt and them, and they were able to bring it up to $40. It used to be $28 a day when I first came into office, but we've just now got it up $40 a day.
Andy McNeill [00:19:53] Do you think that if the state doesn't do anything related to its overcrowding population that it just continues to fall back onto counties?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:20:02] That's most of the time what happens. It does trickle down, trickles back to the counties.
Andy McNeill [00:20:09] Matt, is Governor Sanders' prison proposal, where does that stand?
Representative Matt Duffield [00:20:16] The easiest way to say it, it's a work in progress. But right now, the big issue is the budget. I mean, it's going to be this money allocated to build this thing. And right now on the House end, Representative Lane Jean, he's the lead sponsor. And as I'm sure all of you gentlemen have followed, I believe the initial number was in the 400 millions and now we're up in the 700 millions, I believe.
And right now, it's halted in a committee. The committee members have not voted to approve that, for that to move to the next phase. So right now, that's where it's at. I mean, it's an issue of allocating the funds to continue. That's where it's at without getting in the weeds too much on building a 3,000 bed prison. I mean, we know from looking at at other states, I mean, at least in my view and in several others is that to build a 3,000 bed prison, this magnitude, we're looking at, at least in my estimation and others and well, in excess of 1 billion.
And at least in my opinion, in my estimation, and I'd love the sheriff and the judge's opinion, without getting too much in the weeds, I don't think 700 million will cut it. But right now, that's where it's at. I mean, it's in a budget committee and the members of that committee, which I'm not on that committee, but I have friends that are, but the bottom line is they don't have the votes to approve that to get it out.
Judge Ben Cross [00:21:51] Well, I'd have to agree with Representative Duffield. It's going to be north of a billion. I can say from, we're in the throes of trying to do this county jail, and a residential home right now runs $150, $200 a square foot. You put that same thing into a correctional facility, it's $800 to $900 a square foot. And I base that off of jails being constructed in Miller County, Stone County. They're putting a new jail in Madison County. And those are where the bid points are coming in, all around $800 to $900 a square foot. Because you can't house violent felons, obviously, in sheetrock. So when you start talking a correctional holding site, you're looking at $800 to $900 a square foot.
Andy McNeill [00:22:39] That's astounding. That's not cheap. It's a lot of money on a per square foot basis. I'm curious, you guys have been in law enforcement a long time. Why do you think we have so many people that commit all these crimes? It seems like, here in Arkansas relative to other people, are we just harder on people? Is that why we have more people in jail? Or is it just that there's just something wrong, that we're just committing more crimes?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:23:06] I think a lot of it is just the times we're living in, breakdown of the family structures. You know, when there's not a father and a mother in the home, that's a big thing. And I think a lot of it's just breakdown of family structure. I think it's just the way our time is now, what I've seen. And a lot of it, Andy, is you've got to understand that what I've seen in my over 30 years now of law enforcement, a lot of it's generational. How when Ben was in law enforcement and how I started in law enforcement, I was dealing with the grandfathers and the grandmothers, and now I'm dealing with the grandkids. A lot of it is generational too, I really feel that. So they're raised up around criminal activity and I've seen where a lot of them go into the criminal activity themselves because that's all they know.
Andy McNeill [00:24:05] Judge, do you have a particular view on that? I'm just curious. Because I feel, I think the entire time I've lived in Pope County, which is 20 plus years, I think there's only been two murders that I'm aware of. I mean, there might've been more. I have no idea. You may correct me, and it's dozens more than that.
Judge Ben Cross [00:24:21] That's another urban myth. How about that?
Andy McNeill [00:24:25] So is that an urban myth? Okay.
Judge Ben Cross [00:24:27] Here's a snapshot because it kind of goes back to this staggering number. So you would be surprised. And I pulled these numbers January 1 for the year 2024 just reported. I've got a nice little flyer that I can show you. Just reported in Pope County for one year, 27 rapes, 34 sexual assaults, 71 sexual misconducts, five robberies, three shootings. Law enforcement responded to 370 suicidal subjects. So we're averaging over one a day with a mental health crisis, which goes in a whole other facet of criminality based on mental health crisis. 363 burglaries, that's averaging one a day. 137 vehicle thefts, over 2,000 disturbances. And so what we see is there's not an active news media. So this podcast is great because you're not getting the local news anymore. You're inundated with national news. We used to have the police beat. Well, there is no police beat. And so I think there's kind of a misconception that we're living in Mayberry and the numbers don't pan out when we're having 27 reported rapes. W've had five homicides in the last four years.
Andy McNeill [00:25:50] Okay. Well, that's, you know, it's funny. You're exactly right. You're just not aware of it. And so if it doesn't happen to you, it just seems abstract.
Representative Matt Duffield [00:25:59] Andy, if I may, I'll interject. You know, when I ran my first campaign and went to knock the doors, as I know these two guys, I'm sure did when they ran theirs, but there's areas of Russellville, which, my district essentially is just Russellville and a little bit of Pottsville, and I mean, Andy, there are streets that I could turn on, I remember where they are and I could take you some time, and you turn down the street and you're definitely not in Mayberry or the Russellville that a lot of people know.
So I mean, there's some stuff that goes on for sure. And when you go out and actually see it and these guys hit the streets and the officers hit the streets, they see areas and you see things quickly that are not far from areas that are essentially as safe as can be, but you don't have to go but a block or two and turn a corner and you see it. And I went past a few homes, Andy, and I decided I'd just go ahead and try to send them something in the mail and just move forward, you know?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:26:59] And Andy, here's another thing, Andy, that Ben didn't also mention. I've got four officer-involved shootings since I've been sheriff, since 2015.
Andy McNeill [00:27:11] Really? Okay, that's another aspect. I mean, one of the things-- I'm curious on a few other things. One of the things that I think is harmful about social media is this, it just feeds you, it's like a rage machine. So it feeds you whatever is your thing. And you know, so I think what happens is some people watch videos of police officers being aggressive, and then some people watch the other, like the videos where you pull someone over and someone shoots, pulls a gun on you.
Cause I got to imagine it would just be super hard to be a police officer. And every time you pull someone over, not only may they be in a bad mood, but you just never know if someone's going to pull a weapon on you. That's going to be pretty scary. I'm just curious, do you think that those sorts of things that are out there make your jobs harder?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:28:01] Oh, for sure it does. It's hard to be a law enforcement officer in today's time. It's very difficult. You know, we used to say that we used to have a hiring pool. Now it's turned to a puddle. There's not very many people that want to be in law enforcement anymore. It's just because of the negativity that's been brought on nationally towards law enforcement officers.
You know, there's bad incidents out there that happen across our nation. There's no doubt about it. Now, everybody knows that, but they don't project all of the 1 million encounters we make daily with everybody that no incident occurs and everybody leaves and everybody's doing well. They talk about that one and that's all they feed on is people feed off of negativity now.
Andy McNeill [00:28:55] Oh yeah. It's the rage machine.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:28:57] Yeah. Yeah. And so that makes it hard on law enforcement, especially when sometimes you're only getting edited versions of it. You're not getting the whole video or the whole story. When an officer's out there fighting with somebody on the side of the road, and I know I've been involved in them, I know Ben's backed me up. I've credited Ben, I'm getting off topic here, but I credit Ben for saving my life one night. I was fighting a guy on the side of the road that had just committed a robbery.
I was a rookie, a rookie officer at the time and I made a rookie mistake. And I'm out there fighting and Ben was a state trooper at the time. And he pulled up and we were able to get that gentleman under control right before I was fixing to give up because I was just tired. We were out there fighting in the middle of the highway. Thank goodness it was real late at night. Thank goodness no car came and ran us over. It's just encounters like that and the negativity that's brought on nationally towards law enforcement, it's really made the younger generations say, I don't want to go through that or I don't want to be a part of that. So that's what we're trying to fight now in law enforcement.
Andy McNeill [00:30:17] Well, I want to ask about the 911, because I want you to be able to list the benefits here. Because in some ways, what a blessing. You're in trouble, and you can just magically dial three digits on a cell phone and somebody will help you out. That's like a miracle. We take it for granted. When we look at what we need to do to improve our 911 center relative to this sales tax vote, Judge, can you tell me the things that, what's the list of benefits here?
Judge Ben Cross [00:30:52] Well, obviously it will move us to a capacity level because right now we're operating now at the same 31 year old facility. And so 31 years ago they were taking 40,000 calls a year. And 31 years later we're taking nearly 200,000. And we don't have physically another cubicle to put another dispatcher in. And so we are at max capacity for call volume and call takers. And we need to have space for more call takers because again, we know we're going to be at 110,000 in 2045. And so we need a facility with room to expand.
We're moving into the age of Enhanced 911. Everybody has one of these, and everything can be geolocated. We're going into a mapping system now that when you call in, because 90% of our calls originate from a cell phone, only 10% originate from a landline, with technology that we need to implement, it will give us a mapping system. When you call, you're gonna show up on a map. And we always say seconds save lives and the dispatcher taking the call is saving the lives by cutting off those seconds.
So if we can have a map location of you the instant you call, think about how much time that's gonna save when normally we'd have to start getting locations. And most people don't know where they're at in the world. And so you have to locate them. I think I'm between Russellville and Dover. I think I'm between Little Rock and Fort Smith. And it takes all this time to narrow down. And so one huge benefit of a new center is going to this enhanced 911 mapping system that is going to bring our, it's called a PSAP, primary service answering point. It's going to bring us to the next generation of 911.
Matter of fact, on the state level, it's called NextGen, NextGen 911. So we're all about saving time. We have it down to the fact that we answer all calls with a human. Some 911 systems are automated. We are not. We are 100% a human is going to answer the phone. And 98% of the time, we're going to answer it within 10 seconds. That's our call rate.
Andy McNeill [00:33:16] Well, we've been talking about crime. But let's face it, I don't know what the percentage is, but I imagine, first responders for medical injuries, just all sorts of other things that really aren't criminally related, but just people need help.And so that first responder is really important.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:33:32] Well, and here's what's important, if I can interject into this. This is what's important, why I appreciate Judge Cross' leadership. Pairing 911 and the detention center creates a centralized hub for public safety. And that's streamlining operations. And it's also saving our taxpayer dollars in the long run. So I think that's very important here.
Judge Ben Cross [00:33:57] Yeah, operating one facility, I say everything on one slab under one roof is going to, in the long run, is efficiency. Because right now we're housed in about three different locations and it will bring all that to one center hub and it will allow the sheriff's investigators to literally walk across the hallway to run criminal background checks. It will allow that 911 center to immediately get the information out, especially if we have an incident in the jail. So, under one roof on one slab creates a lot of efficiency. And going back to your earlier question, this is a systemic problem.
And the reason we're seeing such a, I think nationwide, but specifically to Arkansas, being in those high numbers and rates of crime is because the local county jail was designed from inception, and this is all 75 counties, to hold misdemeanors accountable. And you'd be surprised, you've heard scared straight. If you put some young people who commit misdemeanor offenses behind bars for 15 to 30 days, you stand a good chance of heading off that person becoming a felon and becoming a permanent state inmate. So we want all that mechanism.
I have an email from a professor at Arkansas Tech who has been maimed for life by a drunk driver. So we have a female victim, we have a female suspect, and that female suspect has never been held accountable for her actions. And I have a renowned tech professor who is disabled for life at the hands of drunk driver that we, Pope County, have never been able to hold that person accountable because it's misdemeanor offenses. And so we're not able to serve justice locally. And if we can serve justice locally, we might can head off a lot of these state inmates.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:36:00] Yeah, I think that's very important, Andy and Representative. Ben mentioned something about the female population. Our female population in county jails has doubled. With the add-on here, we added on, we have about 26, 27 female beds, and we're constantly running 32 to sometimes almost 40 females that are incarcerated in this jail.
Representative Matt Duffield [00:36:26] What do each of you see as to what changes can be made to make all of these issues that law enforcement has that we have with our prisons, that we have our population? I guess in short, if each of you could take 60 seconds and say, here's what I think a good solution would be to maybe we're never gonna fix the problem, but what would be like first on your list to make things better?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:36:50] Well, and that's a very good question, Representative. I appreciate you asking that. As Matt knows, and I'm president of my Sheriff's Association, and we have been pushing for a new prison for many years. Since I came into the office in 2015, we were pushing for new prison beds back then. But I think in long term, I think the state needs to invest in more reentry programs. I think somebody was talking about recidivism earlier. Our recidivism rate statewide is in the 40 percentile. You know, I think if we invest in more reentry programs statewide, I think that the key is cutting down on recidivism rates. You know, if we can reinvest in that statewide, I think that would play a key role in the overcrowding issues in the future.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:37:50] Well, I agree with the sheriff. And the County Judges Association, as the Sheriff's Association, we wholeheartedly endorse a new state prison. If you take it simply from the effect that our population, since the last prison was built, I think at Malvern, and the add on that's going at Calico Rock, we've not seen a new prison in over two decades. And so look at the population of Arkansas in the past two decades. We're now over 3 million.
So just from a percentage wise, we need a new state prison, if you take everything else out of the equation, to keep up with our population. Second to that is we touched on mental health and criminality are tied at the hip. Because the sheriff will vouch that every time a mental commitment comes in, it can easily turn into a felony charge. And it should not happen. And so we're holding too many mental commitments in county jails that are turning, they assault one corrections officer and, boom, they're popped with a felony.
So we're creating our own felons, who should have never been charged with a felony because they were put into a criminal detention facility when it should have been a mental health facility. So we've got to open up more mental health beds at the state level so we're not creating felons out of unnecessary action.
Representative Matt Duffield [00:39:16] If I may, I'll ask you one more question, Judge. So, I agree with what both of you guys have said. That's what I, in my research and my conversations about the mental health aspect. So, I guess in a, I don't want to say a perfect world, but if we were gonna have more beds for mental health, the mental health folks, how many more beds do you think would really help address the issue with that and take the burden, if you will, off the county jails?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:39:48] Well, and I think you're talking about, we just got a bill out of committee that we've been helping DHS with as far as adding more mental health beds to our state hospital. I believe, Representative, as you well know, they're going to be adding 16 new beds, which that's not enough, don't get me wrong, and hopefully making some of those re-entry. The problem that we have, and I've learned this in meetings, and I didn't know this until I was going to the meetings with the DHS secretary.
So there's people in the state hospital that are holding a bed that could potentially be put somewhere else in another facility, just not the state hospital. So that's what we're working on right now. So, this 16 is not enough, but I know on a state level, a health care bed costs a lot more and it takes a lot to fund mental health.
But the judge is exactly right. We are behind the eight ball as far as statewide as far as it comes to mental health. When we have a mental health person comes in that is dealing with the mental health crisis, we have to put them in a place by themselves. We can't place them with other inmates to protect them. And so they might take up a whole cell or a cell that could hold six other inmates. He's in there by himself because he cannot be with other inmates. And that's unfortunate. And that's like the judge said, our jails are not designed to be mental health facilities, but unfortunately they are.
Andy McNeill [00:41:30] So here's my summary, I look at the problem as pretty complex and very costly. So if it's $800 or $900 a square foot for a prison facility broadly, if it's $28,000 a year or whatever the cost is for an inmate, that's expensive. And so, and when you throw in family issues that you talked about, Sheriff Jones, when you talk about, Judge, what you said about mental health, we could even get into things where, what do we think philosophically about certain things that people do and should they really spend a lot of time in jail or not because they're not dangerous.
But I think one of the things, we can't solve that, but what we can talk about is an idea that if we can push people out of the system, whether it's early on-- and I think Judge Cross, I think what you mentioned is really, really interesting early on about when you've lost that one mechanism to scare people straight because you've just got so much overcrowding, you just removed that as a tool, that's another thing that just keeps people probably in the system. And I don't know the recidivism rate.
I think it's something like a third in the state of Arkansas, where it's a huge number. But what the solution we'd like to do in Pope County is, by a 3/4 cent sales tax and passing of a bond would put up a 400-- what did you say, $85 million facility?
Judge Ben Cross [00:42:57] Yes, the price tag is about $85 million, and it's a 400-bed facility. The Office of Emergency Management, 911, and the center of that hub, and, of course, the Sheriff's Office to operate it.
Andy McNeill [00:43:11] You know, and that sounds like a worthy goal. Sheriff, is there anything that you would like to add?
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:43:19] Well, I would just like to say I'm not, and this is what is near and dear to me, is I'm not doing this for me. And I know Ben's not doing this for him. Because I'm not running again. I'm on my last term. I'll be retiring. But I just want to say that this is very important, that Pope County deserves a justice system that we can be proud of and one that reflects on the safety and fairness and progress. And this tax is a way for us to come together as a community and take responsibility for our future. And that's what's important about this, about what we're trying to do here.
And, you know, I won't be able to sit in the office. I won't be in office when this thing gets ready to open. But I will be a citizen here. And I hope that my son raises our grandkids here. And I want a bright future for my grandkids, for my future grandkids, and everyone else's. And we need a, I'm for a safe community. And that's why it's important to get out and support this public safety tax, because we are voting on our future, in my opinion.
Andy McNeill [00:44:30] I would agree with you. I think that if we're trying to create growth, which I think we are trying to do, broadly speaking, you have to have a safe community. No one wants to go somewhere where they feel unsafe. I think that's a pretty simple thing.
Judge Ben Cross [00:44:43] Well, I was gonna say the key component is you can't have quality of life in your community without public safety. I think our capital city is a reflection of what happens when it goes wrong. So we never want to become a Little Rock and we want quality of life. And that quality of life initiative is based on public safety.
And another key component about sales tax, regardless of anybody's view on taxes, everybody hates that three letter word, half the sales tax revenue collected in Pope County comes from out of county sources. We had nearly 600 ball teams come to town last summer, who, based on the Department of Tourism, they spend about 5,500 per team. And it's because we have quality of life here that people want to come, they want to camp, they want to hike, they want to bike. And so all those quality of life initiatives are surrounded by having a safe community. And so over half our tax revenue is coming from those out of county sources. And we never want to put this upon the local people, like in millage and property taxes.
Matter of fact, this will probably stimulate our economy enough that we can reduce the county's millage, which is currently only at 1 mill. we can reduce that to zero if this passes. And so not only will we create a business environment with zero property tax from the county, then we'll also create that quality of life, public safety aspect that everybody wants and desires to begin with. But always remember, half these taxes are coming from out of the county.
Sheriff Shane Jones [00:46:24] Well, this isn't just a Band-Aid, Andy, this isn't just a Band-Aid fix. It's a forward thinking plan to meet our needs for decades to come.
Andy McNeill [00:46:36] And I like that because I think you need to think long-term for sure. So what I'll remind anybody that's listening is two things. One is the vote in Pope County is on May 13th. Early voting starts on May 6th. You can see the statistics not just for Pope County, but for the state of Arkansas, we've got all the links to where those statistics come from and you can go look at the data yourself and you can make your own judgments about whether you think things are, where we sit and if that's acceptable to you.
Sheriff, really appreciate your time. Judge, I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming on and expressing your views. And you guys have a great day.